Castleton Needham's and beyond

1 Castleton Needham's: I was hoping that the will data would sort out issues with 17th century Needham's but it's only led to more questions and no answers. It feels as if there is one thing missing that will unlock the door but I can't put my finger on it

One of the problems is that Castleton Pr's only really start in 1664 and my problem starts with two Ellis Needham's who had large families and who were born around the period where we have records Having said this I haven't been to Matlock yet to look at the PR's The BT'ss start after this.

The first Ellis marries Mary/Maria Hulme and they have a large family from which Needham's abound spreading into Lancashire. See Needham Castleton 10 FT. Lack and TAN have Ellis's parents as James Needham and Katherine lane but to date I can't find evidence for this. But we are in the no PR period. From this Lack and TAN have the Needham's going back to the beginnings in High Needham

The second  Ellis marries Dinah and they have 8 children, most of whom stay in the locality. See Needham Castleton FT.

One of these Ellis's is probably the son of Robert& Joan and is baptised in Oct 1662. The more likely person would be Ellis of Maria/Mary fame as they start to have children in 1683 (Ellis would be 21) whereas Ellis wife Dinah have children from 1679 onwards (Ellis 17 at birth of first child)

The wills info indicates at least 18 families earlier than the two Ellis families. They are clustered round the wills of
1. Hugh d 1610
2 Richard d 1630
3. Thomas d 1657
4. Rowland d  1672
5 Robert d 1699

The problem is I haven't yet linked any of these families to  those whose children are b after the PR's start. I wish someone could help or I get a break through. The way I'm going it's more likely a breakdown I'll get. Still I have the time and something will turn up..............I hope.

2 Ellis Needham's

3. Correspondence
31Needham Family Tree jaybel: I hope you don't mind me contacting you but I found your Needham Family Tree on Ancestry. I'm a Needham and have set up a site based on a On Name Study I'm undertaking on the Needham's. Currently I'm looking at Needham's in Lancashire and came across your tree. I believe you should be able to trace your Needham line right back to the originator in the 12th century who lived at High Needham near Buxton. If you are still on Ancestry you can see this in my tree Needham Castleton 10 or you can go onto my Needham website: www.nons.co.uk

3.2 Jonathan Needham & Elizabeth but is it Knight or Needham.

3.2.1To IP:I'm a Needham  undertaking a One Name Study of the Needham's and currently I'm looking into the Needham's from Lancashire. I really like your pictures of Maggie born 1842 and the book given to her on her 19th birthday. Thanks for sharing them.
However I have an issue with her parents which I hope you can throw some light on.  In Manchester there are marriages of two Jonathan Needham's to an Elizabeth within a year: 1 JN marries Elizabeth Knight 1st Jan 1835; JN is a dyer. 2.  JN marries Elizabeth Taylor 6 Sept 1836 ; JN is a butcher. Both were married
You have the mother of the family of John & Elizabeth in your tree as Elizabeth Knight which would make JN a dyer. In the 51,61 & 71 census John is a butcher This being the case don't you think it is more likely that John's wife is not E Knight but E Taylor
Further, the only baptism records I can find for Sarah, Elizabeth and Ellis have Jonathan as a dyer, which suggests that their mother is Elizabeth Knight. However, Jonathan is described as a shopkeeper on Margaret's bap record and a butcher when she gets married.
Have you got an explanation  that might help my problem?

3.2.2 To VK: The bad penny turns up again with more questions which I believe you might be able to throw some light on.
I've started to branch out again into Lancashire Needham's and I've even set up a Blog. Currently I'm resting from the red rose lot and have transcribed over 50 more wills from Derbyshire Needham's which has led me back into Lancashire and your tree. Here you have Jonathan Needham b 1814 f Ellis Needham m Charlotte Taylor. You have Jonathan marrying Elizabeth Knight BUT:
 In Manchester there are marriages of two Jonathan Needham's to an Elizabeth within a year: 1 JN marries Elizabeth Knight 1st Jan 1835; JN is a dyer. 2. JN marries Elizabeth Taylor 6 Sept 1836 ; JN is a butcher.
You have the mother of the family of John & Elizabeth in your tree as Elizabeth Knight which would make JN a dyer. In the 51,61 & 71 census John is a butcher This being the case don't you think it is more likely that John's wife is not Elizabeth Knight but Elizabeth Taylor
Further, and to confuse the matter, the only baptism records I can find for Sarah, Elizabeth and Ellis (the 3 eldest children) have Jonathan as a dyer, which suggests that their mother is Elizabeth Knight. However, Jonathan is described as a shopkeeper on Margaret's bap record and a butcher when she gets married.
The  records show a Jonathan/Elizabeth having up to 11 children of which 8 are linked to Jonathan being a butcher in the census records. Ellis, Edwin ( I haven't found him to date) and Jonathan must have died between the census records.

Have you got an explanation that might help my problem? I'm sure there must be one but I can't see it and as this is in your area of knowledge. I'm sure you know the answer