Thursday, 23 February 2017

Correspondence: Lincolnshire, Cheshire & Monyash Needham's & Claphams

Lots of activity in past few days
1. RB & The Claphams

RB 20 Feb;  I have been looking through some old record and came across a photo I may have seen before but forgotten about. So my apologies if I have already sent this of Henry Clapham and Mary Priscilla.
A first picture of Henry & Mary Priscilla Clapham
NN 20 Feb; Fantastic. This is the first photo I've seem of Henry and Mary P. I'd be grateful for any photo's you have that you want to share. by the way you only attached one photo. I'd love to see the others.

RB 22 Feb: May be of interest,
I have just noticed on the Marriage Certificate of  my grandparents Edward Joynes and Dinah Clapham, her father Henry is listed as an Iron Moulder and deceased. Samuel Joynes as a Spring Maker and Edward as a Coal Carrier.

The relationship between Dinah and her father I think, could be described, as somewhat bitter.
It is therefore possible she may have disowned him, not known his whereabouts  and just listed him as deceased.

Witnesses to the marriage on 21st June 1910 were Edward Saville and Bertha Clapham. The ceremony was at The Register Office Sheffield.

Henry's address is given as 7 Park Hill Lane and Dinah's as 2 Court St John's Walk.

If you wish, I can let you have a copy but the original certificate is poor
NN 23 Feb:  Thanks for the info. I still can't find Henry's death but know that he was in prison for neglect of his family. Could I clarify that Henry Clapham was living at 7 Park Hill Lane? If possible I would wlcome a copy of the certificate.
RB 23 Feb; 
Sorry, just me having a senior moment! It was Edward that lived at 7 Park Hill.

Do you have any dates regarding Henry's time in prison?
The story, with a little embellishment (perhaps to Highwayman),  has got to be worth a drink in the pub. 

Along with two members thought to have been deported to Australia the family is gaining some notoriety!

I have also attached Dinah's Birth Cert. Are you able with the aid of your records to determine the name of the street? 

NN 23 Feb: The Clapham's address on DInah's BC - 27 Grafton Street Heaton Norris Stockport
Who was deported to Australia - not heard that one?

Henry's prision record - see attached.

Sentenced 12 weeks neglect of family; Transferred from Manchester to Wakefield Prison 25 Aug '97; Discharged 23 Sept '97. This is the last record I have of him.

In 1901 Mary Priscilla is living in Kenyon Street, Sheffield,  with son Henry and daughters Bertha & Dinah under the surname of Chapman; she is down as married working as a charwoman
I've just found in 1903 she is imprisoned : Sentenced to 5 days in prison for being drunk;  Charwoman; maiden name Wingfield. I wonder if this is when Henry dies! see attached
When Mary Priscilla dies in 1907 she is described as a widow

This family is full of surprises
2. BN & Lincolnshire Needham's

BN18 Feb:
oK, I know that is a silly title when your name is Nigel Needham. In particular I am looking at the Family of George Needham and Ann [Hill] that you have in your tree. You have the first four children (Elizabeth, Sarah, Mary, John], (who were all baptized in Stow In Lindsay, there were four more that were baptized in Glentham. One of the four younger ones, George, was my husband's great great grandfather. Do you know any more about this part of the family? We know that these eight children go together because George [the one born in 1818] left a diary with the dates of birth of all the eight children together with the parent's names. I also found all their baptism records in links and at find My Past. This weekend I was taking advantage of the free UK weekend and looking for any of them in the 1841 England Census. George, William, and Joseph came to Canada we think in 1844. George also left the last names of the men his sister's married, but I've had trouble trying to find the marriages themselves, or any of the others after the baptism records. Have been dying to find someone to correspond with about this.
NN 19 Feb
 Thanks for your message about Needham's
I know this may sound strange but which of my trees are you referring to - I have quite a lot and with a couple of exceptions haven't yet done much on Needham's born/living in Lincolnshire.
Having said that I have started to collect data on Needham's in Lincolnshire and have found a number of parish records relating to your relatives. If you let me have your email address I'll send you a spread sheet with the info on.

You may be interested in a website I run which is a one name study on
Needham's :
There is no data on Lincolnshire in there yet but there is a lot of general interest on the genealogy of Needhams that may interest you
RB 19 Feb
Oh, dear I see you do have a tree or two. It is the Needham Warsop 2 tree I believe, link here: hopefully that goes to "my" people.

Here is the link to my tree at the relevant part

Some specific sources I have not listed on the tree, but have them on my computer in my Legacy Family Tree program.

Have been debating having my husband do DNA, are you including that in your surname project? Thanks. I am going to go look at your one name study now. Thanks so much for answering.
NN  19Feb 
 Now I understand. The tree you are referring to was obtained from the archives of the Derbyshire Family History Society. It is the only tree that i have not checked. I purchased a copy of Warsop parish records recently but they did not go back early enough for me to ratify the tree; so I'll have to go t the archives. However I live about 20 miles from Warsop and now I know someone has some interest I'll follow it up after I've completed the first phase of work on the Oldham Needham's.
Tomorrow I'll send the spreadsheet; I'm off to bed now. If you tell me what you're looking for I'll have a look for what records I can find as I have both an Ancestry & FMP account.
I have had my DNA done by 23andme but I have no plans to include it in my one name study yet - too much else to do.
I take it that you're not based in the UK
PS hope you find the website of use. I'd welcome some feedback on how easy it is to use and how it can be improve
 RB 19 Feb
My husband's family is definitely from Lincolnshire. The parents George Needham and Ann Hill were married in Cammeringham, and had eight children, three of whom came to Canada. The first four were baptized in Stow in Lindsay and the second four in Glentham. If you are including Canada and the U.S. in your one name study I have a few relatives that I can add!
Sent a long and possibly incomprehensible email. Have been looking at your Needham website. Very interesting.. waiting for Lincolnshire to show up now of course but very glad to hear about Needhams from other places.

My husband is XXXX, his father was Robert, his father was Robert.. then we get back to George the one who actually came to Canada. Too bad there is no available 1850 census of Ontario. THAT would be interesting.
RB 20 Feb;
Thanks for responding on Ancestry. It looks like the piece of tree that I found is of Lincolnshire Needhams. I thought it interesting on your website that you list common names of Needhams which still were carried down into my husband's family.. Robert and Mary. The other sister is Nancy, guess that came from the mom's side.

I will start out by telling you the "family story." That the oldest brother upon the death of the father gave each of his brothers [or all the brothers] an iron penny so that he would not have to share the inheritance, and that the brothers then aged 8, 10, and 12 then decided to go to Canada. They then went to their sister's house, married to Lord Fox to say good by. The servant who came to the front door told them to go to the back door and being insulted by being treated in this way they left never to come back. Added later: one of the boys broke the bishop's staff upon being "corrected" with it and came to Canada with the head of it.

OK first of all we discovered that there was no Lord to Elizabeth's husband, he supposedly was then described to be a publisher.

This is about where things stood until I received a letter from a lady who runs a website of diaries of early Canadian settlers. She asked permission to use a photo of George Needham to go with his diary. This is the first I had heard of its existence but then discovered that at one point my husband's mother had donated the diary to the local library, who then claim they had lost it. So it showed up now in the Archives of Ontario and I paid over $100 US to have a digital copy sent to me. It probably was worth it since they scanned every page even including some bills that were tucked in the pages. The diary itself was rather boring, each day stating "sowed oats" "went to town" "Rebecca died" just one line, no emotions. However showed that it was a hard life. But the gem of the diary was the list of George's brothers and sisters and all of their birthdates. 

So searching at Find My Past, lo and behold here is a family with all the right children and birthdates.

Elizabeth 1804, married a Fox
Mary 1805 married a Harper
Sarah 1808 married Earnshaw
John 1812
William 1816
George 1818
Ann 1820 married Eyre
Joseph 1822

[He did give the exact birthdates which is why I could be sure. Also gave the parents names as George Needham and Ann Hill, another way to know I had the right family.]

William, George, and Joseph are the ones who came to Canada. They obviously could not have been 8, 10, 12 just by their birthdates. Assuming the youngest to be 8 then the other ages would have been more like 12 and 14. But also each of these three put on the Canadian census that they came to Canada in 1844.

So upon further searching in FMP I found the marriage of the parents in Cammeringham [George Needham and Ann Hill] and possibly George's baptism and parents being John Needham and Mary. [you have this on the tree I found]

So what have I not found? I have not found the death of George Needham the father. Or I have found three deaths of George Needham with no way of telling if any of them is the correct one. I found  death of an Ann Needham but no way to tell if is their mother.

I have not found  a John Needham that can conclusively point to being the brother of William, George and Joseph.

I have found, maybe, William, George and Joseph individually in Lincolnshire in the 1841 census with William and Joseph as ag workers or farm labor and George in some kind of church school which would fit the "bishop" part of the story, although probably a curate not a bishop. But can't be certain that is them, either.

Cannot find any marriage of Elizabeth with a Fox. There is a marriage of a William Fox with an Elizabeth Needham but she has the wrong birth date and place.

Harper I think I found, as one place in the diary 1818 George states that Dring Harper stopped by and I did find a marriage of Dring Harper and Mary Needham.

No other marriages found except of course for the three who came to Canada.

So the other relatives should show up on the 1841 census but cannot find any of them and indeed not conclusive that the William George and Joseph I found are the correct ones.

I found a Google book on the Agriculture of Lincolnshire which I am struggling through but no mention of a Needham family in it at all.

I hope this came through clearly, sometimes my thoughts get all muddled thinking about this.

George in Canada named his male children George, James, Robert, and Alfred.
William named his boys Joseph and John.
Joseph named his boys William Joseph and John

Thanks for listening to my ramblings,
NN 20 Feb; sent Lincolnshire BBM data 
NN 23 Feb sent BBM data for George Needham & Ann Hill
3 JF Monyash Needham's
JF 22 Feb
I don’t know if you accept individuals who never showed up on parish register baptisms.  My 3X grandmother was Ann Needham, born Monyash 1799/1800.  She was the youngest child of Samuel Needham and his wife Ann.  Mother Ann is buried at Monyash May 6 1801, so maybe they never got around to baptising baby Ann. All Ann’s older siblings were baptised at Monyash and are on your site: William 1787, Elizabeth 1789, Sarah 1792, Thomas 1794, Martha 1796 and Betty 1798. Young Ann marries Matthew Brocklehurst of Sheldon 21 May 1818 at Bakewell where her father’s name is given as Samuel Needham a farmer of Monyash. The 1851 census (as Ann Brocklehurst, age 52) and her death certificate 25 June 1855 age 56, give us a small window for her birth date. When her father Samuel Needham dies 15 September 1847 at Monyash, the informant on the death certificate is Ann Brocklehurst in attendance Monyash.
There is a small oil painting of Samuel Needham of Monyash, where he looks to be about 50-60 years old.  The painting is now owned by my brother.  I took a photo of it and can send a PDF if you are interested in photos of Needhams. This portrait is contemporaneous with the sitter.  It was treasured in my Brocklehurst family, my father being told that it was of a Samuel Needham when he was given it by his uncle many years ago.
NN 22 Feb;
Thanks for the info. about Ann. You probably know that there are gaps in most parish records; I'll look into the Monyash records and see if such a gap exists around 1799/1800. You could always check with the Bishops Transcripts.
I would very much like to have a copy of any photo's you have and if you are agreeable I would like to put them on the nons web site. Please be assured that pictures and details of living people are not published.

If you've found errors on anything on the nons website don't hesitate to let me know.

Did you find it easy to find the info you were looking for and from your perspective what could be done   to improve the site
I apologise for renaming you! I was very impressed with your website.  There is so much information there and I had no problems navigating around. I will check the BT for Monyash.  I don't think that I went through them -- just the parish register. It has been a number of years since I looked at my records and they are not as well organised as I would like.  Just now I am trying to pull together my direct Brocklehurst line so that I can leave something readable for my children. I find that rather than the information reducing to a manageable amount, it is constantly expanding!!

I hope you don't mind, but I need to rethink our portrait of Samuel Needham.  I would be very willing to put it into a public domain but as it is the property of my brother, in retrospect I am not sure that I should do that.

I see that you linked sister Martha and brother William (both baptised Priestcliffe) to my Samuel Needham and his brother John (both baptised Chelmorton). I had also seen these two offspring of John and Sarah but was not sure if this were the same family.  As the villages are so close I think I agree with you
JF 23Feb
  No need to worry about renaming me; my wife often threatens to do that. I understand about the picture. There are so few portraits of Needham's I would like to see a copy on the understanding it's for my eyes only; I'll leave that with you but if you don't want to do that there is no need to worry.

Look forward to hearing that you've tracked down your baptism

PS I often go walking in Derbyshire and frequently go to Priestcliffe and Monyash
4 VK Cheshire Needhams

VK 21 Feb
You may recall that some months ago you very kindly let me have information about the Needham family tree together with copies of papers deposited at the Derbyshire Archives by Thomas Ashby Needham which have been extremely interesting. At the time, you said you had also written to his direct descendent, George Ashby Needham.  I wonder, as a matter of interest, if you ever received a reply?!  May I say that I have also found your website a valuable source of information although very few Needhams seem to have found their way to Lancashire!  I still find it incredible that from the information you gave me I can trace a direct line back.

I was also recently in touch with an historian friend of ours who asked if Marchamont Nedham (1620-1678) the journalist and pamphleteer was one of 'our' Needhams.  I was unable to answer this but I feel sure that you will know! 

NN 22Feb
Glad you found the info I sent of use and  the website a source of information - it was for that reason I set the site up.

With respect of Thomas Ashby Needham I wrote to his relative and got a very nice reply. I'm about to go back and look further into the TAN archives. There are a lot of Needhams in Lancashire and throughout most of the 19th century Lancashire was the county with the largest number of Needham's (go to section 2,2,1 at )  I've just started looking at those in Oldham so watch this space..

Marchamont Nedham is a descendant of the Derbyshire Needham's ( go to to Otwell Needham/ Elizabeth Cadman are his great great grandparents.

5 Oldham Needhams
Work continues. Now got consolidated Burial and Marriage records but the Baptism data is only the Ancestry Needhams. A lot of work. Have started on the trees but got side tracked by mails - still it was worth it

Tuesday, 14 February 2017

Oldham Needham's

1. Started on the Oldham Needham's and found:
  • there are 600 plus baptisms in the parish
  • vast majority of parents are from Oldham cf Sheffield
  • there are a lot of common christian names which makes it difficult to sort
  • there is a high number of illegitimate births
  • it'll taking a long time to sort out
2. Macros; Attempted to write macros to analyse data but failed miserably. CAN'T EXTRACT YEAR DATA FROM A DATE!

Sunday, 5 February 2017


1. Mail form DL saying there is an error in the family of Dorothy Needham (1512-1574) who married John Dakyns in 1541. Some how I'd managed to get her family completely wrong. Copied her family from Burkes and have updated the tree on Ancestry and hopefully nons.
2. AM sent me photo of her family

Saturday, 4 February 2017

Needham Timeline

1. TimelineUpdated the Needham timeline adding data for all the 1600/1630 counties ie where a county has a baptism in this period a full  analysis has been completed for all time periods up to 1840. The map looks like this:

The London area has been expanded to show the detail
2. Correspondence, AM; sent detail of the Knights. I've updated the family 5(2) tree on Ancestry