Sunday, 21 May 2017

Needham's Todmorden

1.Needham's Todmorden Correspondence with SH

Hello Nigel

I've been trying to find out where my Needham family originally came from and during one of my searches came across your site. Looking at some of the information you've compiled I think I may have got a couple of generations further back in my research and my family may link into the Harthill Needham family,  but before I go any further I thought I'd get in touch to see what you think.

My Needham family turned up in Todmorden in the 1810s. I've checked the Parish Registers and the first time the Needham name appears is in 1815.

Samuel Needham seems to be the one who first came to Todmorden with his family. Samuel died in Todmorden in 1833 and according to the burial register was 70. I've been able to find two Samuel Needham's whose births would fit with this date, one baptised in Sheffield in 1773 (father Robert) and one baptised in Masborough Independent Chapel, Rotherham (father George, mother Susanna) in 1776. Of the two, my inclination is that Samuel is the son of George as his first son was called George (my 3 x g.grandfather) and he had 2 other sons, John and Thomas but didn't have a Robert. (George and Susanna had 4 sons baptised in Masborough, their others were also George, Thomas and John!).

In 1798 Samuel married Hannah Cawthray in Bradford and their first 4 children (born between 1799 and 1811) were all baptised there. Their 5th child, Ann, was the first one to be baptised in Todmorden in 1815. Samuel was an Iron Moulder as was his son George.

The only George Needham who had a wife named Susanna at the relevant time led me to George Needham who married Susanna Dobson in Rotherham in 1763 and the only George I could find who was probably of the right age was George, son of George who was baptised in Harthill in 1740.  Find My Past have the registers for Harthill on their site and there are lots of George's there - but I think the line may lead back to George son of Robert.

I'm currently testing the FTM software and because I didn't want to mess around with my main Ancestry tree I separated the Needham branch off. My tree is private but would you like me to give you access to it so you can see what I have?

I hope to hear from you and welcome your thoughts.

1.2 NGN Reply

Good to hear from you and that you found the website of some use; that's what it's there for.  Like you I have the same problem with my family line; I can trace them back in Sheffield to 1768 but then the trail goes cold. In fact this is the reason the 'nons' website was established as I accumulated so much data in my search for my relatives that I realised that others could use. In addition it's clear now that the Needham's moved from the land into the rapidly growing industrial northern cities during the industrial revolution ie the 18/19th century's. So we are in a period when people moved around (mainly within a 25/50 mile radius), they are changing occupation, it's before the general register and census records (ie we are dealing with parish registers) and the males are most frequently called George, John, Thomas, Joseph and William. Your summary is a classic of the times. Sorry for the bad news which you are clearly well aware of. BUT I think I can help but not until the beginning of next week as I'm away from my PC from tonight and over the weekend.

In the period you are dealing with, an iron foundry was set up in Low Moor Bradford and a number of Needham's  were head hunted from foundry's in Rotherham. It led to a civil court case which was reported in the papers. If I can find it this evening; it's one of the Rotherham/Sheffield/Ecclesfield trees I'll give you the details. After a bit of searching I found them in my own tree but they are not much use I think. They are the sons of Matthew Needham & Elizabeth Lee;
NEEDHAMMatthew Needham & Elizabeth6 Nov 1774244Matthew Needham Sheffield
LEEElizabeth Lee< 1777

NeedamHannah27 Feb 1799
NEEDHAMGeorge Needham15 Oct 1797245Matthew & ElizabethSheffield
NEEDHAMEster Needham26 April 1801245Matthew & ElizabethSheffield
NEEDHAMThomas  Needham12 Aug 1804
NEEDHAMCharles Needham8 Dec 1805
NEEDHAMJoseph Needham28Oct 1807245Matthew & ElizabethWentworth
NEEDHAMBenjamin Needham25 Oct 1807245Matthew & ElizabethWentworth
NEEDHAMElizabeth Needham25 Dec 1809245Matthew & ElizabethWentworth
NEEDHAMMary Needham8 Aug 1813245Matthew & ElizabethEcclesfield

They are in tree Needham 5 family tree on Ancestry. I'll make you a guest.
The Low Moor Bradford data I have is:


18014361823 09 07.GeorgeNEEDHAMThomasMoulderLydiaLong Row


23518761826 03 26.ElizabethNEEDHAMThomasMoulderLydiaLow Moor

25120071827 01 14.BettyNEEDHAMCharlesMoulderHarriotLow Moor

24419521826 08 13.ElizabethNEEDHAMGeorgeMoulderCatharineShelf


21817411825 06 12.MarthaNEEDHAMCharlesMoulderHarrietGlasshouse

25420321827 02 25.ElizabethNEEDHAMBenjaminMoulderMaryLow Moor

If you have other data I'd be grateful for a copy
I must say I think I have found a better fit for your Samuel. He is a son of George & Sarah and was baptised in Sheffield in 1762. I can't find a marriage or death for him in Sheffield:

NEEDHAMGeorge Needham3 may 1719203William NeedhamSheffieldcutler
COPELANDSarah Copeland<1730


NEEDHAMJohn Needham2 Feb 1750212George Needham Sheffieldcutler
NEEDHAMTamer Needham1 Jan 1751212George Needham Sheffieldcutler
NEEDHAMGertrude Needham 25 Oct 1752212George Needham Sheffieldcutler
NEEDHAMSarah Needham 30 Sept 1753212George Needham Sheffieldcutler
NEEDHAMGeorge Needham 4 Oct 1754212George Needham Sheffieldcutler
NEEDHAMAnn Needham 11 Apr 1757 212George Needham Sheffieldcutler
NEEDHAMSarah Needham 11 Oct 1758212George Needham Sheffieldcutler
NEEDHAMWilliam Needham 20 Aug 1760212George Needham Sheffieldcutler
NEEDHAMSamuel Needham 12 April  1762212George Needham Sheffieldcutler
NEEDHAMThomas Needham 5 July 1763212George Needham Sheffieldcutler

I hope this helps

It's much easier, I find, to look and compare trees and I would be grateful if you could either send me either a gedcom file or give me access to your Needham tree. I have the same problem as you re trees as all mine are on Ancestry and linked to FTM. There are 200 of them! So you can imagine the issues I'm facing. I've already had to regenerate trees a couple of times. I can't believe what Ancestry have done or the lack of preparation by the new owner. It's a good job industry/NHS/Local Government/Banks etc are much more customer focused. Still it's only a hobby. At least that's what I tell myself

Hope this helps and I must apologise for the mistakes and poor presentation but I'm about to shut my computer down!

1.3 Reply from SH
Thank you for your email and for replying so promptly (particularly as you were going away) with lots of information. The Samuel you've found looks very promising and is, as you say, a better fit. I'll look and see what else I can find out about this family.  I've deleted George and Susanna as Samuel's parents in my Ancestry tree, so my tree now starts with Samuel and Hannah.  I've given you access to it. 

I've also attached a spreadsheet showing the Needham births and deaths from the Todmorden Parish registers (to 1837) and the marriages that took place at St. Chad's, Rochdale. I've checked the Heptonstall registers too and there aren't any entries in those registers. (Todmorden was partly in the parish of Rochdale and partly in the parish of Halifax)

I looked up Low Moor foundry, Bradford, as Samuel and Hannah were married in Tong, Bradford in 1798 and the foundry was started in 1790 I think Samuel must have been one of the earliest Needham's to travel there to work. I'd love to know why they then moved to Todmorden. There was a foundry at Salford, Todmorden which is very near to where they lived so I imagine they moved to work there.

I don't know how you cope with the number of trees you have on Ancestry and FTM!  I bought the Roots Magic software last year, because they said they'd be linking with Ancestry - but they haven't managed to yet!

 1.4 Reply from NGN
 Thanks for the mail and info. I'm away from my pc this weekend so I'll look at the data you sent when I get home

You said that Samuel was 70 when he died in 1733 but his burial record says he was 60.  That being the case then your original suggestions are more likely. 

Will be in touch

1.5 Reply from SH:

Thanks Nigel. I don't know why I suddenly decided Samuel was 70 and then perpetuated it by putting 70 in the spreadsheet I sent and agreeing that the Samuel you'd found was a better match (I've just checked the Lancashire Parish Register transcription book and that quite clearly states he was 60 too, so the mistake is all mine!) You'll need to amend my spreadsheet - sorry.  I'll put George and Susanna back in the tree as Samuel's parents. I have a bit of information on his brother Thomas too, which I found by accident last night, so I'll add that too.

I hope you enjoy your weekend away and I'll keep in touch.

Wednesday, 17 May 2017

Castleton Needham's and beyond

1 Castleton Needham's: I was hoping that the will data would sort out issues with 17th century Needham's but it's only led to more questions and no answers. It feels as if there is one thing missing that will unlock the door but I can't put my finger on it

One of the problems is that Castleton Pr's only really start in 1664 and my problem starts with two Ellis Needham's who had large families and who were born around the period where we have records Having said this I haven't been to Matlock yet to look at the PR's The BT'ss start after this.

The first Ellis marries Mary/Maria Hulme and they have a large family from which Needham's abound spreading into Lancashire. See Needham Castleton 10 FT. Lack and TAN have Ellis's parents as James Needham and Katherine lane but to date I can't find evidence for this. But we are in the no PR period. From this Lack and TAN have the Needham's going back to the beginnings in High Needham

The second  Ellis marries Dinah and they have 8 children, most of whom stay in the locality. See Needham Castleton FT.

One of these Ellis's is probably the son of Robert& Joan and is baptised in Oct 1662. The more likely person would be Ellis of Maria/Mary fame as they start to have children in 1683 (Ellis would be 21) whereas Ellis wife Dinah have children from 1679 onwards (Ellis 17 at birth of first child)

The wills info indicates at least 18 families earlier than the two Ellis families. They are clustered round the wills of
1. Hugh d 1610
2 Richard d 1630
3. Thomas d 1657
4. Rowland d  1672
5 Robert d 1699

The problem is I haven't yet linked any of these families to  those whose children are b after the PR's start. I wish someone could help or I get a break through. The way I'm going it's more likely a breakdown I'll get. Still I have the time and something will turn up..............I hope.

2 Ellis Needham's

3. Correspondence
31Needham Family Tree jaybel: I hope you don't mind me contacting you but I found your Needham Family Tree on Ancestry. I'm a Needham and have set up a site based on a On Name Study I'm undertaking on the Needham's. Currently I'm looking at Needham's in Lancashire and came across your tree. I believe you should be able to trace your Needham line right back to the originator in the 12th century who lived at High Needham near Buxton. If you are still on Ancestry you can see this in my tree Needham Castleton 10 or you can go onto my Needham website:

3.2 Jonathan Needham & Elizabeth but is it Knight or Needham.

3.2.1To IP:I'm a Needham  undertaking a One Name Study of the Needham's and currently I'm looking into the Needham's from Lancashire. I really like your pictures of Maggie born 1842 and the book given to her on her 19th birthday. Thanks for sharing them.
However I have an issue with her parents which I hope you can throw some light on.  In Manchester there are marriages of two Jonathan Needham's to an Elizabeth within a year: 1 JN marries Elizabeth Knight 1st Jan 1835; JN is a dyer. 2.  JN marries Elizabeth Taylor 6 Sept 1836 ; JN is a butcher. Both were married
You have the mother of the family of John & Elizabeth in your tree as Elizabeth Knight which would make JN a dyer. In the 51,61 & 71 census John is a butcher This being the case don't you think it is more likely that John's wife is not E Knight but E Taylor
Further, the only baptism records I can find for Sarah, Elizabeth and Ellis have Jonathan as a dyer, which suggests that their mother is Elizabeth Knight. However, Jonathan is described as a shopkeeper on Margaret's bap record and a butcher when she gets married.
Have you got an explanation  that might help my problem?

3.2.2 To VK: The bad penny turns up again with more questions which I believe you might be able to throw some light on.
I've started to branch out again into Lancashire Needham's and I've even set up a Blog. Currently I'm resting from the red rose lot and have transcribed over 50 more wills from Derbyshire Needham's which has led me back into Lancashire and your tree. Here you have Jonathan Needham b 1814 f Ellis Needham m Charlotte Taylor. You have Jonathan marrying Elizabeth Knight BUT:
 In Manchester there are marriages of two Jonathan Needham's to an Elizabeth within a year: 1 JN marries Elizabeth Knight 1st Jan 1835; JN is a dyer. 2. JN marries Elizabeth Taylor 6 Sept 1836 ; JN is a butcher.
You have the mother of the family of John & Elizabeth in your tree as Elizabeth Knight which would make JN a dyer. In the 51,61 & 71 census John is a butcher This being the case don't you think it is more likely that John's wife is not Elizabeth Knight but Elizabeth Taylor
Further, and to confuse the matter, the only baptism records I can find for Sarah, Elizabeth and Ellis (the 3 eldest children) have Jonathan as a dyer, which suggests that their mother is Elizabeth Knight. However, Jonathan is described as a shopkeeper on Margaret's bap record and a butcher when she gets married.
The  records show a Jonathan/Elizabeth having up to 11 children of which 8 are linked to Jonathan being a butcher in the census records. Ellis, Edwin ( I haven't found him to date) and Jonathan must have died between the census records.

Have you got an explanation that might help my problem? I'm sure there must be one but I can't see it and as this is in your area of knowledge. I'm sure you know the answer

Wednesday, 10 May 2017

Derbyshire Wills - The end

1. Derbyshire wills: At last I've been through all the Derbyshire Needham wills at Litchfield and updated nons. Now I've got the task - a pleasant one - of updating all the trees. Some of the early wills I've struggled to translate. If anyone can help I'd be more than grateful

2. Site Glitches 2: a number of poor links on the home page have been rectified

Saturday, 6 May 2017

Derbyshire Wills

1. Wills: Have been through all the available wills for Derbyshire bsed  Needham's at Litchfield and have found over 50 Needham's, and varient names, whose wills will be added to nons in the next week
2. FTM: have trialled the new software. The sync is OK for new trees but misses many media files in older ones. Room for improvement