Leicestershire Needham's

Restarting the blog as a way of recording what I've done:

Leicestershire Needham's.
I transcribe the data taking as much data from the record as possible starting with baptisms, then deaths and finally marriages. Then  the baptisms  are sorted by father,then mother, then date. This is the starting point for all my trees. Having got family units I look to link their mother and father totheir mother and father. SO what have I done with your info.

1.     I’ve taken the trees etc sent by VT transcribed them into birth/baptism, burial/death and marriage data and duplicated your tree onto Ancestry

2.      I’ve been through the Rothley parish data, wills, gravestone and census data

3.     Subsequently I’ve compared the data you sent with what I found. There are some questions this raises which I’d be grateful if you could comment on. 

4.     Then there are a series of specific question

4.1 William marriage to Hannah

William b 1732 m 1753

The only marriage I can find is
Wm
Last name			Needham
Year			1752
Event date			? Dec 1752
Spouse's first name(s)			Ann
Spouse's last name			Brian
Parish			Keyham
County			Leicestershire

What do you think? Have you any evidence to back that this is Williiam & Hannah?

4.2                 Which joseph marries Ann Elliott?

We know a Joseph Needham marries Ann Elliott in May 1778 and we also know a Joseph Needham marries a Mary Searson also in 1778
Needham	Joseph	Temple Rothley	01 Jun 1778	1778	Rothley	Mary searson
Needham	Joseph	Rothley	10 May 1779	1778	Rothley	ann elliot	rothley
based on the Jospeh being older than 21 and less than 30 there are two candiates for these wedding:
Needham	Joseph	1 Jul 1753
Needham	Joseph	21 Apr 1755
But which Joseph marries Mary and goes on to have the following children?

My judgement would be Joseph bap 1753 because that's the only Joseph who could marry Mary and have Elizabeth born1778 legitimately 

Last Name	First Name	baptism	Year	where	father	Mother
Needham	joseph	bef 1757			John	Martha
Searson	Mary
Needham	Elizabeth	19 Jul 1778	1778	Rothley,Leicester,England	Joseph,	Mary
Needham	John	21 Nov 1779	1779	Rothley,Leicester,England	Joseph,	Mary
Needham	Joseph	10 Jan 1791	1791	Rothley,Leicester,England	Joseph,	Mary
Needham	Joseph	17 Mar 1802	1802	Rothley,Leicester,England	Joseph,	Mary

Do you agree?

4.3                 Issues with records

There are some issues with the parish records
1. Who does Mary Bebb Marry?  John Needham or Joseph Needham   ?
2. Why isn't there a mother stipulated on a number of baptism  records when those before and after have mothers stipulated
3, For 3 families there is a large gap between the penultimate and last child.  Were the fathers in the army? 4.4                 Issues with families 4.4.1  John & Mary Needham john 1781 Simons Mary 1783 Needham William 25 Apr 1802 1802 Rothley,Leicester,England John, Mary Needham Mary 16 Aug 1807 1807 Rothley,Leicester,England John, Mary Needham Amelia 10 Feb 1811 — 1811 Rothley, Leicestershire, England John Needham Elizabeth 13 oct 1811 — 1811 Rothley, Leicestershire, England John Needham Sarah 13 Sep 1812 — 1812 Rothley, Leicestershire, England John  Mary Needham William Simons 25 Dec 1814 — 1814 Rothley, Leicestershire, England John Mary labourer Needham Sophia 21 Jan 1816 — 1816 Rothley, Leicestershire, England John Mary labourer Needham John George 08 Aug 1824 — 1824 Rothley, Leicestershire, England John mary Cottager 1. 6 baptisms between 1802 & 1824 of Needham’s with f John m Mary plus two baptisms with f John no mother stipulated 2. A John married a Mary Simons 25 Sep 1809thus likely that two baptisms of William & Mary baptised 1802 & 1807 area a different John/Mary combination see later 3. Amelia & Elizabeth baptism record records the father John but not the mother and the baptisms of each is 8 months apart so likely they have different parents. As Elizabeth bap is 11 months away from Sarah's baptism likely that Elizabeth has a different John / Mary combination 4. Probable that William, Mary and Elizabeth have the same John/Mary parentage that id distinct to the others ie Amelais, Sarah, William Simons & John George. The date of marriage for John/Mary Beeb of 03 Jan 1801 fits 5. Freereg has John/Mary getting married on this date & doesn’t have Joseph marrying Mary Beeb so perhaps John & Mary Beeb do get married. This would fit and explain much
Proposal of family structure:
Needham	John
beeb	Mary
Needham	William	25 Apr 1802		1802	Rothley,Leicester,England	John,	Mary
Needham	Mary	16 Aug 1807		1807	Rothley,Leicester,England	John,	Mary
Needham	Elizabeth	13 oct 1811	—	1811	Rothley, Leicestershire, England	John

Needham	john	1781
Simons	Mary	1783
Needham	Amelia	10 Feb 1811	—	1811	Rothley, Leicestershire, England	John
Needham	Sarah	13 Sep 1812	—	1812	Rothley, Leicestershire, England	John	Mary
Needham	William Simons	25 Dec 1814	—	1814	Rothley, Leicestershire, England	John	Mary	labourer
Needham	Sophia	21 Jan 1816	—	1816	Rothley, Leicestershire, England	John	Mary	labourer
Needham	John George	08 Aug 1824	—	1824	Rothley, Leicestershire, England	John	mary	Cottager

4.4.2  John & Rachell

Needham	John	10 may 1779			Rothley	william	Jane?
Holden	Rachel	1780
Needham	Joseph	3 Jun 1799		1799	Rothley,Leicester,England	John,	Rachel
Needham	John	14 Sep 1800		1800	Rothley,Leicester,England	John,	Rachel
Needham	William	25 Apr 1802		1802	Rothley,Leicester,England	John,	Ratchel
Needham	John	16 Sep 1804		1804	Rothley,Leicester,England	John,	Rachel
Needham	Mary	1 Apr 1804		1804	Rothley,Leicester,England	John,	Rachel
Needham	Mary	16 Aug 1807		1807	Rothley,Leicester,England	John,	Ratchel
Needham	Charles	7 May 1809		1809	Rothley,Leicester,England	John
Needham	Enoch	02  Jan 1820	—	1820	Rothley, Leicestershire, England	John	rachel	Framer work knitter
Needham	Charles	02 Jjan 1820	—	1820	Rothley, Leicestershire, England	John	Rachel	Framer work knitter
Needham	Sarah	09 Sep 1821	—	1821	Rothley, Leicestershire, England	John	Rachel	Framer work knitter

1. John &  Rachel marry 25 Jun 1798
2. 10 baptisms oof children f John m Rachell. 3 have same christian name John 1800 & 1804; Mary 1804 & 1807 Charlew 1809 & 1820
Burials	John	19 Mar 1801
	Mary		none
	Charles	none
3. Short gap between Mary Apr 1804 & John Sep 1804. Suggests two families
4. Large  gap between Charles b 1809 and Enoch b 1820
5. Enoch & Charles bap on. Same date

4.4.3 John & Elizabeth

Needham	John	bef 1783
Litherhead	Eli	bef 1783/1781			Rothley
Needham	Mary	01 Apr 1804	—	1804	Rothley	john	eliz
Needham	Eliz	6 Jul 1806		1806	Rothley,Leicester,England	John,	Eliz
Needham	Mary	8 Jun 1806		1806	Rothley,Leicester,England	John,	Eliz
Needham	Charles	07  May 1809	—	1809	Rothley	John
Needham	Elizabeth	13 oct 1811	—	1811	Rothley	John
Needham	Matthew	24 jul 1813	—	1813	Rothley	John	Eliz	labourer
Needham	John	18 Oct 1818	—	1818	Rothley	John	Elizabeth	framer work knitter
Needham	Sarah	11 Feb 1827	—	1827	Rothley	John	Elizabeth	labourer

1. Number of baptism only father identified eg Charles & Eliz; question is m Eli

2. JN/EL marry sep 1803

3. 2 x Mary. Mary bap 1804 Mary bap 1806 . No bur of Mary  found. Suggests 2 families

4. Mary bap Jun 1806 & Charles bap 1809. Suggests not diff families. Nb Charles no mother id

5. Matthew b 1813 & sarah b 1827 f John job labourer  cf John b 1818 job framework knitter

6. Large gap between birth John 1818 & Sarah 1827 ie 9yrs

4.5                 Which John marries which girl

There are 4 John's baptised between 1779 & 1781

Needham	John	10 May 1779	1779	Rothley,Leicester,England	William,	Jane
Needham	John	21 Nov 1779	1779	Rothley,Leicester,England	Joseph,	Mary
Needham	John	25 Feb 1781	1781		Sarah
Needham	John	13 Apr 1781	1781	Rothley,Leicester,England	John,	Ann

There are four burials may/may not match with the births

Needham	John	1779	18 Jan 1835	1835	Rothley	56	Leicestershire Burials	Rothley, Leicestershire, England
Needham	John	1778	07 Jun 1842	1842	Rothley	64	Leicestershire Burials	Rothley, Leicestershire, England
Needham	John	—	21 mar 1783	1783			Leicestershire Burials	Rothley, Leicestershire, England
Needham	John	—	19 Mar 1801	1801			Leicestershire Burials	Rothley, Leicestershire, England

There are four marriages

John	Rothley	1777	25 Jun 1798	1798	Rothley	Rachek Holding	Rothley
John	rothley	1782	04 sep 1803	1803	Rothley	Elizabeth Litherland	south end of Mounsorrel
John		1780	03 Jan 1804	1804	Rothley	Mary Bebb
John	rothley	1788	25 Sep 1809	1809	Rothley	Mary Simons	Rothley temple	thomas Hill & Elizabeth Hilley?

But there is confusion about the marriage of John to Mary Beeb, I’ve found a number of records

1.     As above the transcription reads (Leicester Marriages) reads john marries Mary Beeb 03 Jan 1804 at Rothley. This is the only record where you can see the original record; the others are transcriptions. But the link to the image takes you  to Phillimores and the entry of the marriage of John Needham too Mary Beeb on the 13 Jan 1801. Confused. So am I.

2.     three records have Mary Beeb marrying Joseph Needham 13 Jan 1801 and Banns being read in Dec 1800. This looks like a genuine record note the date. Why because a Phillmore’s record has John Needham marrying Mary Beeb on the 13 Jan 1801. Leicester Marriages (FMP) has a transcription of John Needham marrying a Mary Beeb on the 3 Jan 1804 but as we’ve seen this takes you to the entry in Phillimore on13 Jan 1801 

3.     so, I’ve been through Phillimore’s & Leicester Marriages looking for marriages of John N to Mary Beeb. The only record is in Phillimores        on the13 Jan 1801 but this is linked incorrectly and there is no transcription. So I conclude that a John N did not marry a Mary Beeb. The Phillimore’s entry has been incorrectly transcribed and is for Joseph not John Needham. The entry for 03 Jan 1804 is an incorrect transcription; there is no evidence that this occurs

There are three other record sets that can help/confuse the puzzle facing us ie Census, gravestones & wills

Census

There are two relevant census returns. IN 1841 in North Street John Needham lived with his son Enoch. Both were frameworkers. The second return was jn Town Green where John Needham, a farmer,  lived with Mary his wife, daughter Sarah and son George.

Gravestones

Similarly, there are two gravestones in Rothley church yard involving John Needham’s. The first has John d 5 Jun 1842 age 61 (b 1781) buried with his wife Mary who d 20 Dec 1844 age 61 (b 1783). The second gravestone sees a John Needham whi died 4 Oct 1827 age 70  (b1757) buried with his wife Ann d 28 Nov 1829 aged 70 (b 1759) and son Joseph who d 13 Dec  1830 age 31 (b 1799)

Wills

Finally, there are two wills relevant to this debate (although I wish there were more). A John Needham a labourer from Rothley wrote a will on 3 Oct 1827 and named his wife Ann, and son Joseph, Thomas & William; he also said he had two other children but didn’t name them. The second will was written by John Needham, a farmer and reed surveyor from Rothley, on 14 Apr 1842 and named his wife Mary, two sons William Simon and John George Needham and daughter Sarah

There are 6 families with a father John who have children between 1780 and 1830 in Rothley. Froom the baptism records I’ve grouped the children into families based on the dates, father/mother combinations. Note 2 records only record the fathers name ie John

All this information is summarised in the spread sheet attached in the sheet called issues.  I’ll cut to the chase and summarise what I think is the case BUT, and there is always a but, there are always issues which I’ll highlight. I’ll go along a timeline starting with family 1.

Family 1

Needham	John	2 Jul 1758
Goodin	Ann	bef 1760
Needham	John	13 Apr 1781
Needham	Ann	27 May 1785
Needham	William	17 Nov 1790
Needham	Mary	20 Mar 1793
Needham	Thomas	27 Dec 1796

John is baptised on the 2 Jul 1758 in Rothley with a father William and Mother Hannah. He marries Ann Goodin on the 27 Nov 1780 and in Rothley they have five children baptised between 1781 and 1796. John is a labourer.  There is a burial of a John on 5 `oct 1827 aged 72 (b 1755). The burial fits with a gravestone and when a will was written but his age doesn’t (he’s two years older than he should be).  To back this up as mentioned there is a will and a gravestone BUT these both raise an issue. The will and the gravestone both specify a son Joseph who the gravestone says died on 13 Dec 1830 age 31 (b 1799); there is a burial record for John in Rothley on the 15 Dec 1830 aged 72 (b1798) abode Loughborough. Although I believe this to be Joseph the son of John and Ann the only baptism record I can find in Leicestershire for a Joseph is in Rothley on 3 Jun 1799 to John& Rachel; so if I have got this correct where was Joseph b around 1799 & baptised?

Family 2

Needham	John		bef 1778
Holden	Rachel		Bef 1778
Needham	Joseph		3 Jun 1799				John,		Rachel
Needham	John		14 Sep 1800				John,		Rachel
Needham	William	25 Apr  1802				John,		Ratchel
Needham	John		16 Sep 1804				John,		Rachel
Needham	Mary		1 Apr 1804				John,		Rachel
Needham	Enoch		02  Jan 1820	—			John		rachel
Needham	Charles		02 Jjan 1820	—			John		Rachel
Needham	Sarah		09 Sep 1821	—			John		Rachel

This is John Needham and his wife Rachel Holden who married on the 25^th Jun 1798 and had eight children between 1799 and 1821. If this is true there is an unusual gap of eleven years between 1809 and 1820 when they had no children. Either that or some children are missing or there is a second family f John m Rachel. There is no will or grave associated with this family but in the 1841 census John Needham (b1781) is living with his son Enoch. But there may be a twist Enoch married Ann Grant in Sheepshed in 1840 so where is Ann? And when did John die (after 1841) and when was he born/baptised (bef 1778 based on birth of youngest child)

Family 3

Needham	john	bef 1780
Bebb	Mary				No death Mary 1807/1811
Needham	William	25 Apr 1802		John,	Mary
Needham	Mary	16 Aug 1807		John,	Mary
Needham	Elizabeth	13 oct 1811		John

There are two baptisms first of a William in 1802 and then of a Mary in 1807 both with a father John Needham and mother Mary. They don’t fit in with family 5 because a John Needham married Mary Simmons in 1809 which would mean William & Mary were both illegitimate iif the mother was Mary Simmons. Of course Mary Simmons could be John’s second wife and initially I thought Mary Bebb was a candidate if she married John in 1801. But there is too much uncertainty about the marriage and there is no death of a Mary Needham between 1807 ( when Mary the second child was baptised) and 1809 (when John married Mary Simmons) or even 1811 ( when Amelia was born). The other possibility is that John Needham and his wife Mary moved in from another parish, but there is no obvious candidate within 20 miles of Rothley. Soo I’m stumped. Well I was until I looked at Freereg. I have come to trust FMP but in this instance it’s let me down. Freereg has the marriage of a John Needham on the 13 Jan 1801 to Mary Bebb at Rothley. This has the Hall Mark of a correct entry quoting the transcriber by name. So I’m changing my view and now believe this marriage is real

Family 4

Needham	John	bef 1783
Litherhead	Eliz	bef 1783
Needham	Mary	01 Apr 1804	—	john	eliz
Needham	Eliz	6 Jul 1806		John,	Eliz
Needham	Charles	07  May 1809	—	John
Needham	Matthew	24 jul 1813	—	John	Eliz
Needham	John	18 Oct 1818	—	John	Elizabeth
Needham	Sarah	11 Feb 1827	—	John	Elizabeth

This is the Family of John Needham and Elizabeth Litherhaed who got married on the 4^th Sep 1803 and had seven children between 1804 and 1827. Again there is a large gap between 1818 and 1827 when the couple had no children. Makes you wonder if there is something in the water. Using the 21 year rule John was born bef 1783 and died after 1827. So when was he born and when did he die? He must have died after 1827 and before 1841 because John would appear not to be alive in the 1841 census. This means that John almost certainly was buried on the 18 Jan 1835  aged 56 and hence was born in 1778/9. 

Family 5

Needham	john	bef 1790
Simons	Mary
Needham	Amelia	10 Feb 1811	—	John
Needham	Sarah	13 Sep 1812	—	John	Mary
Needham	William Simons	25 Dec 1814	—	John	Mary
Needham	Sophia	21 Jan 1816	—	John	Mary
Needham	John George	08 Aug 1824	—	John	Mary

It would appear that John Needham and May Simons married on the 25 Sep 1809 and had five children between 1811 and 1824. For the third time there is a large gap between 1816 and 1824; in this case eight years. There is quite a lot of evidence on this family. First on the 14^th Apr 1842 John Needham a farmer & reed surveyor made a will and named his wife Mary and three children William Simon (nb note the use of Mary’s maiden name), John George Needham and Sarah Needham. Now people of this era write their will shortly before their death and a John died in June of that year aged 64 (b 1778) and two years later Mary his wife died. Finally, there is a census record of 1841 with a John Needham, a farmer/labourer of Town Green aged 60 (b 1781) was living with his wife Mary and two of his children Sarah b 1816 and George b 1825. 

Family 6

Needham	John	bef 1797
	Sarah
Needham	Mary	20 Sep 1818	—	John	Sarah
Needham	Edward	10 feb 1822	—	John	Sarah

The last family in this series has John Needham and his wife Sarah living with their two children who were born in 1818 & 1820. The baptism records say John was a labourer. I can find no other records in Rothley for them. It seems likely that John was born outside Rothley and moved away after Edward was born. If we assume Mary was a first child then we can look for a marriage of John Needham & a Sarah; and there is one in Sheepshed on 4 Jul 1814 when a John Needham married Sarah Sporton with a witness Samuel Needham. Baptism records in Sheepshed show a John Needham was baptised on 11 Aug 1783 f Samuel m Hannah. John & Sarah have children baptised in Sheepshed in Dec 1814, Apr 1816, Jun 1820 & Dec 1823. So the gaps between children baptised in Sheepshed would allow them to have two children baptised in Rothley. If this is the case why have two out of six children baptised in Rothley?

4.6 Fathers

There are four Johns born between 1778 and 1781

Needham	John	10 May 1779		1779	Rothley,Leicester,England	William,	Jane
Needham	John	21 Nov 1779		1779	Rothley,Leicester,England	Joseph,	Mary
Needham	John	25 Feb 1781	—	1781		Sarah
Needham	John	13 Apr 1781		1781	Rothley,Leicester,England	John,	Ann

Plus there are two John’s possibly born outside Rothley Parish ie: 

1.     John of family 6 who married Sarah Sporton in Sheepshed and was proably born in 1783 to f Samuel & m Hannah                                

2.     John of family 3 whose  wife was Mary and who was  born bef 1781 (based on baptism date of the eldest child) although just to confuse things I now believe he was born in Rothley and married Mary Beeb

Of the four families we know the burial date and from this can identify the baptism date of the. The John of family 1 was born before 1760 and the only baptism date close to this date is 2 Jul 1758 father William mother Hannah. The second John is the head of family 5. John wrote a will

Family	wife	Where	Birth**	Actual	1841 census	death	death aft	death bef	Burial
1	Ann Goodin	Rothley	bef 1760	2 Jul 1758	n	oct 1827			oct 1827
2	Rachel Holden	Rothley	bef  1778	21 Nov 1779	y		aft 1841	bef 1851
3	Mary	Beeb	bef 1781	25 Feb 1781	n		aft 1807	bef 1841
4	Elizerbeth Litherland	Rothley	bef 1783	13 Apr 1781	n		aft 1827	bef 1841
5	Mary Simons	Rothley	bef 1778*	10 May 1779	y	07 Jun 1842	aft 1841		07 Jun 1842
6	Sarah Sporton	Sheepshed	bef 1797	11Aug 1783	?		aft 1822	bef 1887

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    

*Based on burial info

** Based on the age of eldest child -21

In Apr 1842 and almost certainly died in Jun of that year. His burial record states he was 64 and thus born in 1778; based on the age of Amelia his eldest child you would think he was born around 1790, unless he was married before. Now we know there are baptism records for family 3 father John mother Mary who have two children the eldest of which is Mary baptised 1802 from which the father would expect to be born before 1781. The downside is that no Mary is buried in Rothley  between1807 and 1811 and there is something wrong with the supposed marriage record of a John Needham to  a Mary Beeb – see earlier. On a very tenuous argument ie of taking the earliest baptism date then I’ll say that John was baptised on the 10 May 1779 f William m Jane but I’d like to see more evidence. If anyone has it please contact me

                                                                                                                                                                                        

So we are left with family 3&4 and we have two baptisms yes two but the dates of the baptism are less than two months apart. How do we identify which John is associated with which family. Age is the only way I can think of : no will or gravestone. Any ideas anyone? If its age then family 3 would have John bap 25 Feb 1781 as the head and family 4 would see John bap 13 Apr 1781 as its head                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              

So to the question: which   John was born/baptised when and can we identify when they died.

Family	baptism	parents	wife
1	2 Jul 1758	f William m Hannah	Ann Goodin
2	21 Nov 1779	f Joseph m Mary	rachel Holden
3	25 Feb 1781	m Sarah	Mary
4	13 Apr 1781	f John m Ann	Elizerbeth Litherland
5	10 May 1779	f William m Jane	Mary Simons
6	11  Aug 1783	f samuel m Hannah	Sarah Sporton

This is very different from what you did