William Arthur Needham was b 22 Oct 1913 in Mansfield. His father was John Edward Needham and his mother a Thurman. So, let's find out about William Arthur’s father. I’ll call him John Edward Needham
William Arthur was born 22 Oct 1913, fig 1, and in 1939 he was living at 260 Southwell Road, Mansfield. with :
1. Mary A Needham b 16 Mar 1686 who was a widow and whose maiden name we know was Mary Anne Thurman (combine 39 census & birth registration info)
2. Ronald Needham b 21 Apr 1924
William & Ronald were brothers and both were miners
Fig 1 Census 1939
From the Civil Registry William A Needham was born in 1913 with a mother whose maiden name was Thurman; he was born in Mansfield, fig2. So, William’s mother was a Mary Ann Thurman but who was his father?
Fig 2 Parents of William A Needham
In 1939 the mother Mary Ann Thurman was a widow. Before he died John Edward and Mary Ann had four sons John Edward b 1911, William Arthur b 1913 Reginald b1 917 and Ronald b 1924. The eldest three appear in the 1921 census with f John Edward Needham head and Mary Ann his wife. John is aged 33 years & 6 months ie b Oct 1888 and Mary is 35 years and 3 months ie b Jul 1886
This leads us to a death of John Edward Needham. As he doesn’t appear in the 1939 census and his wife is a widow he must be dead.
The GRO has the death of John E. Needham in Q4 1938 in Mansfield. This is taken from Ancestry. But the GRO data base of does not recognise John E. Needham but does recognise John Edward Needham. This person appears on the same page as John E Needham
There is a newspaper article reporting the inquest into the death of a John Edward Needham in Nov 1838, fig 4. It says that John Edward Needham was a miner who has a son William Arthur
Needham. We have already found a William Arthur Needham the son of John Edward Needham living in Mansfield. So, it would appear that John Edward Needham was the husband of Mary Ann Thurman and they have six children four boys and 2 girls. John Edward Needham was born in Derby or Derbyshire in Oct/Nov 1888 and his wife Mary Anne Thurman was born in Shepshed, Leicestershire in Jul 1886
Figure 4 Nottingham Evening Post 18 Nov 1838
Figure 5 Death cert of John Edward Needham
John Edward is clearly married to Mary Ann Thurman but when and where did it occur..
I’ve done extensive searches on FMP, Ancestry, Free Reg and the DFHS. The only John Edward Needham’s I can find are:
1. In the 1891 census there is a John Edward Needham living with his parents Edward & Alice. John Edward was born in Derby around 1889. The census record states his father Edward was born in Derby in 1861 but often Derby is short for Derbyshire so it may be that he was born in Derbyshire rather than Derby . He is a fishmonger. On the other hand, his mother Alice was born in Burton on Trent; which is in Staffordshire.
Figure 6 1891 Census John Edward aged 2 son of Edward & Alice
I cannot find:
1. A birth registration or a baptism for a John Edward Needham b in 1888+/- 5yrs anywhere in England
2. A marriage certificate for a John Edward Needham to a Mary Ann Thurman anywhere in England
This I find very worrying. In the 15 years I’ve been looking at the Needham’s this is the first time this has occurred. Previously, where certs have been missing I’ve usually found an explanation
But :
1. there is a marriage certificate for an Edward Needham 21 marrying a Mary Thurman, Fig 7, on 7th May 1910 in Hugglescote Leicestershire. Edward was aged 21 ie b 1889 and Mary was 24 ie b 1886. We know the maiden name of the mother of your William Arthur Needham was a Thurman. Further, Edward is a collier and his father, another Edward was a fish monger: see above.
Figure 7 Marriage of Edward Needham to Mary Thurman 7 May 1910
This the only reference I can find of a Needham marrying a Thurman in the required timescale. But and there always seems to be a but there are two sets of banns for this event. One set is registered in Coalville, where the groom lived, and the other, where the Bride lived, was Hugglescote. The problem is the Coalville record says the future groom is Edwin Needham while the are registered to Edward Needham and Mary Thurman in Hugglescote. They are eventually
Figure 8a Banns for Edwin & Mary Thurman's wedding - Coalville
Figure 8b Banns for Edward & Mary Thurman's wedding - Hugglescote
married in Hugglescote and the groom is Edward. This does surprise me as both Edward and Mary signed the wedding cert which suggests they can read and write. However, it does indicate that Edward and Edwin can be interchangeable for whatever reason
2. the 1911 census has an Edward and Mary Needham matching the names and ages of the
Edward and Mary who married in Hugglescote Leicestershire in 1910. Shepshed is close to
Hugglescote, fig 9
Fig 9 1911 Census return for Edward and Mary Needham
The 1911 census return for Edward & Mary Needham states that they had been married for 1 year ie married in 1910. Edward is aged 22 b 1889 in Derby and a coal miner, and Edwards spouse, Mary (Anne Thurman) is aged 24 b1887 in Shepshed, Leicestershire. Edward and Mary were living in [Oak] Street Mansfield. This present a problem as in 1881 Edward is a fishmonger and now he’s a coalminer. This does seem unnlikely
3. In the 1901 census a Walt. and Alice Needham, have four children, Edward aged 12 b 1889, Thomas aged 10 b 1891, Mary aged 8 b1893, and William aged 6 b 1895. Alice was b in Burton on Trent in 1862, The family are living in Green lane, Coalville. Note the marriage cert. of Edward and Mary Thurman says Edward is from Coalville
Figure 10 1901 Census Walter & Alice Needham and family
I’ve tried to summarise all this in one table to show the linked data and differences
Table 1 Table showing records for John Edward / Edward Needham throughout his life
2 The Issues
2.1 Name John Edward/Edward
The last record for John Edward Needham was his death certificate/newspaper report of the coroner’s inquest. Both record his name as John Edward Needham with a son called William Arthur Needham. The best estimate is that John Edward was born in 1888+/- 1yr. In addition, the first census after his birth ie the 1891 census has a John Edward Needham living with his parents, Edward and Alice in Burton on Trent. Why Burton on Trent? Well, this is where Alice was born. This all looks straight forward until you look at the census results for 1901 and 1911. I can’t find an appropriate record for a John Edward Needham for these records but as the table above shows there is an Edward Needham of the right age born in Derby whose mum is Alice and she is from Burton on Trent. The available data on Edward fits the marriage record of Edward to Mary Thurman in 1910 in Hugglescote. Everything is a good fit except the name. On two records its Edward and on three it’s John Edward. I’ve seen this interchange of Edwin for Edward & visa versa, before, but I’ve never been 100% convinced that we are not dealing with two families. And this is the case here
So are these the same person? It would appear so except for the name and this could be explained by John Edwards dad also being called Edward. This type of issue is usually sorted with the birth or baptism record as the father’s name and in these times the mother’s name usually appears on the baptism record and is always on the birth certificate can think of two reasons where this could happen. The first is where the father has children, dies and the widow remarries – another Needham in this case. But the second husband has to die and the widow has to marry for a third time but in this instance a man with the same first name as her first husband – very unlikely. where there is conflict in names between census records and birth, death and marriage records. Is when the son has the same Christian name as the father. To avoid confusion the families add another Christian name and it is this name that is recorded on the census return
Similarly, a death record is in the name of John E. is E the initial of Edward and why is he called John E? Need to check burial crematorium records (see earlier). There is no probate record or newspaper announcement about the death
2.2 Fathers Name/Occupation/Birth
The only record of a Needham and a Thurman marrying is where Edward Needham marries a Mary Thurman. When Edward & Mary Thurman got married the groom’s father was also called Edward Needham and he was a fishmonger. This matches the information in the 1891 census. John Edward, the son, is 2 and his dad and mum are Edward and Alice. It’s all looking positive until the 1901 census is looked at . This time there is Edward aged 12 the son of Walt. and Alice. Who is Walt? Is this a genealogical googly? Or are we dealing with more than one Edward?. So not only does Edward appear to change to Walt. But transfers back to Edward the Fishmonger. I can take one difference but there are two in this case: father’s occupation and & his name. The differences are getting too Big
Birth of John Edward’s/Edward’s father
As we have seen From Edwards marriage to Mary Thurman it would appear that John Edward/Edwards father was another Edward who you would expect to be born around 1860-1870. Th most likely candidates are:
Walter Needham | 1860 | Jul-Aug-Sep | Derby, Derbyshire |
Edwin Needham | 1861 | Jul-Aug-Sep | Derby, Derbyshire |
Walter Needham | 1861 | Jul-Aug-Sep | Derby, Derbyshire |
John Needham | 1862 | Jul-Aug-Sep | Derby, Derbyshire |
Table 2 Birth of John Edward’s father
Some interesting names cropped up. Eg Edwin and Walter
2.3 Birth of John Edward/Edward or Edwin?
The question is can we find a birth/baptism record. I’ve done quite a view searches on FMP, Ancestry, Free reg, Derbyshire Family History Society website using various names and search techniques. The first thing to say is when it comes to parish records , Derby doesn’t have one data base or reference site you can turn to- except I’ve probably built the most comprehensive Needham database for Derby. It is quite clear that because of the state of the records you have to use all the sites to capture what’s available. And it would appear that quite a lot of the records just aren’t there. But you can’t say the same thing about the general register. At least I hope you can’t.
A reminder we are looking for a John Edward or Edward Needham born around 1888+/- 2 years born in Derby or Derbyshire with a father Edward or Walter
2.4 Birth (John or John Edward Or Edward)
I’ve found the following records
John Edward Needham | 1887 | Oct-Nov-Dec | Oldham, Lancashire, England | |
John Edward Needham | 1887 | Oct-Nov-Dec | Oldham, Lancashire, England | |
John Edward Needham | 1888 | Jul-Aug-Sep | Chorlton, Lancashire, England | |
Edward Needham | 1888 | Jan-Feb-Mar | Ashbourne, Derbyshire, England | |
John Edward Needham | 1888 | Jul-Aug-Sep | Chorlton, Lancashire, England | |
Table 3 Possible birth records of John Edward | ||||
If all the earlier work is true then there is only one birth worth following ie. Edward b 1888 in Ashbourne. This is the only birth that fits the name, the year and the birth place (in this case Derbyshire). However, when you track through the census returns then you find Edward Needham living with his parents , William & Hannah in Bradbourne, the place where this John Edward was born. Where as ‘our’ John Edward (LHS)is possibly living in Leicestershire and is a coal miner. Plus our John Edwards mum is Alice not Hannah
Table 4 1901 Census returns for two Edward Needham’s
Census 1901 | | Census 1901 | |
Name: | Edward Needham | Name: | Edward Needham |
Age: | 12 | Age: | 13 |
Estimated Birth Year: | abt 1889 | Estimated Birth Year: | abt 1888 |
Relation to Head: | Son | Relation to Head: | Servant |
Gender: | Male | Gender: | Male |
Father: | Walt Needham | ||
Mother: | Alice Needham | ||
Birth Place: | Derby, Derbyshire, England | Birth Place: | Bradbourne, Derbyshire, England |
Civil parish: | Whitwick | Civil parish: | Bradbourne |
Ecclesiastical parish: | Whitwick St John the Baptist | Ecclesiastical parish: | Ballidon and Bradbourne All Saints |
Town: | Whitwick | Town: | Bradbourne |
County/Island: | Leicestershire | County/Island: | Derbyshire |
Country: | England | Country: | England |
Registration district: | Ashby-de-la-Zouch | Registration district: | Ashbourne |
Sub-registration district: | Whitwick | Sub-registration district: | Brassington |
ED, institution, or vessel: | 17 | ED, institution, or vessel: | 1 |
Table 5 Census 1891 & 1901 returns for Edward Needham
Census 1901 | | Census 1891 | ||
Name: | Edward Needham | Name: | Edward Needham | |
Age: | 12 | Age: | 3 | |
Estimated Birth Year: | abt 1889 | Estimated Birth Year: | 1888 | |
Relation to Head: | Son | Relation to Head: | Son | |
Gender: | Male | Gender: | Male | |
Father: | Walt Needham | Father: | ||
Mother: | Alice Needham | Mother: | ||
Birth Place: | Derby, Derbyshire, England | Birth Place: | Bradbourne, Derbyshire, England | |
Civil parish: | Whitwick | Civil parish: | Bradbourne | |
Search Photos: | Search Photos: | |||
Ecclesiastical parish: | Whitwick St John the Baptist | Ecclesiastical parish: | All Saints | |
Town: | Whitwick | Town: | Bradbourne, Bradbourne, Derbyshire, England | |
County/Island: | Leicestershire | County/Island: | Ashbourne | |
Country: | England | Country: | Brassington | |
Registration district: | Ashby-de-la-Zouch | Registration district: | 1 | |
Sub-registration district: | Whitwick | Sub-registration district: | View others on page | |
ED, institution, or vessel: | 17 | ED, institution, or vessel: | 2756 |
The conclusion of all this is there doesn’t appear to be a birth/baptism record for our man
2.5 Marriage
Table 6 Possible marriages for John Edward/Edward Needham
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
es | Sheffield, St Bartholomew, Yorkshire (West Riding), England | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
The issue of a marriage is clearer as an Edward Needham marries a Mary Thurman in Leicestershire in 1910. The problem is that one of the Bann records says it is Edwin not Edward that is getting married. I appear to be the only one to have spotted the fault although others have taken it that another Needham, Edwin in this case married Mary Thurman
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